Bowen’s Preliminary

DR. SEABURY W. BOWEN’S PRELIMINARY TESTIMONY

 

Q. (Mr. Adams) What is your full name?

A. Seabury W. Bowen.

Q. And your place of residence?

A. Second street, Fall River.

Q. How long have you resided there?

A. About twenty years.

Q. And you have been in practice how long, as a physician and surgeon?

A. 25 years.

Q. You are in general practice?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any particular specialty, or are you in general practice as a physician and surgeon in this city?

A. General practice.

Q. You were a neighbor of the Bordens, both family physician and friend, I believe?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. If your house is correctly described to me, it was diagonally across the street from Mr. Borden’s house?

A. Yes.

Q. On the day of the tragedy, you received some information with reference to it, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you then, when that came to you?

A. I was just driving up to my house from the south.

Q. From whom did this information come?

A. It came from my wife, and from a man named Thomas Bowles at the same time.

Q. Thomas Bowles is the one referred to as working in the stable near by there, or connected with the stable?

A. He works for Mrs. Churchill.

Q. Do you know what time it was then?

A. No Sir.

Q. Can you give me an idea about what time it was?

A. The only means I have of judging, is calculating backwards from the time that I sent a telegram.

Q. Such calculations as you seem fit to make enables you to say in round numbers it was about what time?

A. Somewhere between ten and twenty minutes past 11 in the morning.

Q. By the way, you have been summoned here, and have been in attendance here constantly, as a government witness? You have been summoned here every day as a government witness?

A. I have been summoned.

Q. If you do not know by whom, it is very fortunate.

(Mr. Knowlton) I will agree that he was.

Q. In consequence of that information, what did you do?

A. I went directly across the street into the side gate, the north gate, into the side door, which was the north door, and met Miss Lizzie Borden.

Q. What took place? State everything you saw, and what was said and done.

A. I was excited myself, because I received the message in such a manner that I knew something waswrong. My wife was very much excited indeed, and Mr. Bowles at the same time told me to go across; and I was prepared for something unusual. I said “Lizzie, what is the matter”? She said “father has been killed”, or “been stabbed”, I would not say which.

Q. What was her appearance? Describe how she stood, and where she stood, and her general appearance.

A. I could not describe her appearance, or what she had on very well, because I did not think nor mind.

Q. Describe her manner, and where she stood, not her clothing, everything that took place, as near asyou can recollect.

A. I could not say whether she was in the side hall or in the kitchen, I think in the hall.

Q. What did you do?

A. I asked her where her father was- — or perhaps I asked her—. She said he had been killed, or stabbed. I says “did you see anybody”? She said she did not see anybody. I asked her if she heard anybody. She said she did not. Then I asked her where her father was. She said he was in the sitting room. I went directly through the dining room to the door of the sitting room, the door from the dining room to the sitting room.

Q. I do not care to go into that about which there is no dispute. You went into the sitting room, and saw Mr. Borden?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Who were there when you got to the house?

A. I have heard all the evidence, and I have no doubt that Mrs. Churchill was there, and Miss Lizzie Borden, those two.

Q. You do not recollect anybodyelse?

A. I do not recollect anybodyelse at that time.

Q. After seeing Mr. Borden, what did you do?

A. I examined him, and satisfied myself that he was dead. I went directly out the door going from the sitting room to the kitchen, and told whoever there was there that Mr. Borden had been killed, that he had been murdered.

Q. What was done? Was anything done about a sheet then?

A. I asked very soon for a sheet, I wont say how long afterwards.

Q. Was it at this first time you went to the house you asked for that?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Who got it?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Did you see Bridget there?

A. Bridget was there before I left the house.

Q. You do not remember she was when you came the first time?

A. When I went to the door, I do not remember certainly.

Q. What was the position of Mr. Borden on this sofa at this time when you saw him, because, as I understand it, you were the first person who came in there?

A. He was lying on the right side of his face. The head of the lounge or sofa was near the door leading from the dining room to the sitting room.

Q. With his head towards the hall?

A. Yes, the front hall door.

Q. Calling your attention to Photograph No. 5, and the position there, I ask you how the position which you saw him in, varies from that, if it does at all?

A. The only difference I can see, I think the whole form has sunk down, has slipped down. I do not think the head is quite as high now as it was when I first saw him. The only way I can explain that, is that by walking through the room, he may have settled down some way.

Q. Settled down into the sofa, up towards the foot of the sofa a little?

A. I thought the head was a little higher up on the arm.

Q. On that part of the arm where it makes the curve to the back of the head?

A. Yes Sir. Under the head was a coat, I think, and a sofa pillow that he was lying on.

Q. Now after this sheet was brought, which you think was sometime during this first visit to the house-

A. I am certain it was the first visit.

Q. Whether you went away?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Where did you go?

A. As I was going out, Miss Lizzie asked me if I would not telephone or telegraph to her sister. I said I would do anything for her that I could.

Q. You did telegraph, or cause a telegram to be sent?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Where did you go to send it?

A. The Western Union Telegraph Office on Pleasant street, between Second and Main.

Q. How many minutes walk was it?

A. It was a ride, I rode.

Q. You drove?

A. No, I went to my house before that.

Q. You went to the house?

A. To my house across the street.

Q. Then did what?

A. I told my wife what had happened, and consulted the Old Colony time tables to see if she could come on the first train, to see if she was able to.

Q. After consulting the time tables, what did you do? Did you drive to the telegraph office?

A. Yes Sir, my boy drove me down to the telegraph office.

Q. Then right back again?

A. I went from the telegraph office into Mr. Baker’s drug store on Main street. I had a few moments conversation with Mr. Samuel Flint. Then I drove directly to the Borden house.

Q. When you went in the second time, as I assume you did, who were there then?

A. I could not say I am sure.

Q. Were there people there?

A. Yes, there were people there, some, I do not know who.

Q. While you were there do you recall that Mrs. Churchill came in with some information with reference to Mrs. Borden?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that at that time?

A. That was at that time, yes.

Q. What did you do in consequence of that?

A. I went up stairs.

Q. Who went with you?

A. I went alone, as far as I know.

Q. You went through the sitting room and front hall up the front stairs?

A. I am not certain whether I went through the sitting room or dining room.

Q. You got to the front hall, and went up stairs?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. When you got up stairs yourself, what did you see?

A. As I was going into the door, I could look over the bed and see the prostrate form of a lady, a woman.

Q. I do not care as to any details with reference to the injuries which she had, but I would like to have you describe the situation at the time of the bureau and the bed, and of her body.

A. The body was just about midway, I should say, between the dressing case and the bed, in that direction, and the head, I could not say but two or three feet from the wall of the partition of the room. It is merely a matter of guessing, I do not know anything about it, and never have measured it.

Q. How much space was there on either side of the body, between the bureau and the body, and the body and the bed?

A. I don’t think I went between the dressing case and the body, but I went between the bed and the body. There was very little room, and I presume I moved the bed in going there.

Q. Was anybody with you when you went there?

A. I do not think there was when I went first.

Q. Now I would like to have you describe the position of the hands and the body at that time, when you first saw it.

A. Mrs. Borden was lying on her face, squarely on her face, perfectly straight, so far as her legs were concerned, perfectly straight and square on her face, as near as I can remember. Her arms were folded or–

Q. Give an illustration with yours.

(Witness shows with his arms.)

Q. Pointing how, abreast, or below the line of the arm pits?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. One across the other?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Were they up like this, over the head?

A. No Sir.

Q. Are you positive about that?

A. I am positive of that.

Q. What did you do to the body at that time? Did you do anything at the first sight of it?

A. I placed my hand on the head, on the wounds of the head, and satisfied myself that she was dead.

Q. Did you disturb any of the limbs, or anything, did you move them at all?

A. No Sir, I do not think I did.

Q. Do you know how they got to be in this position where they to be subsequently?

A. No, I do not know.

Q. Have you any idea about it?

A. She must have been moved.

Q. You do not know who did it?

A. No Sir.

Q. Later that same day did you see Dr. Dolan there?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. How long after that?

A. I could not say how long.

Q. Was it a little while, 10 or 15 minutes, or half an hour, anything like that?

A. I should say it was somewhere near quarter of an hour, I would not say positive.

Q. Somewhere near quarter of an hour?

A. Somewhere near.

Q. Did you and he then go up stairs together after he got there, sometime?

A. Yes Sir, I think I took him up stairs.

Q. After he came you took him up stairs?

A. I think so, I am not certain.

Q. To see this body?

A. Yes.

Q. While he was there, did you make some notes for him?

A. I did sometime; whether it was the first, second or third time, I do not know.

Q. Was there a third time that you went up there?

A. I do not remember.

Q. Were you there a good many times during the day?

A. I went up several times between the first time I went up, and 12 o’clock. I went up with several parties, I do not remember who.

Q. Were you there later during the day?

A. I think I must have been until probably one o’clock, or half pat 12; I won”t say positive.

Q. Do you remember being in Miss Lizzie’s room when the officers came, and they were searching, two or three o’clock in the afternoon, or 12 or one o’clock, whenever it was?

A. I do not know as I was in the room. I know the officer suggested that Lizzie’s room be searched.

Q. Did you go in to speak to her in consequence of what was said to you?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Had you previously had some talk with her about her condition and feelings, and one thing and another?

A. The second visit I told her to go to her room. I covered Mr. Borden up, and had her friend Miss Russell take her up to her room. I told her, she better go up to her room, and stay there.

Q. Did she go in consequence of your direction?

A. I think she did in consequence of my direction.

Q. Afterwards you found her there?

A. I think she was there most of the day.

Q. After the officers spoke to you, you found her in her room?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Which was sometime that morning, or about one o’clock?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Had you been in the habit of visiting the Borden house?

A. Very seldom, except for business, financial or professional.

Q. Do you remember when you were there before the tragedy?

A. I was there the morning before.

Q. That was Wednesday morning?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. What time?

A. I could not say. It was after my breakfast time; it was somewhere about eight o’clock, or quarter past eight.

Q. How long after your breakfast?

A. Very soon after.

Q. Somewhere about nine o’clock?

A. Before nine I think.

Q. Before nine o’clock?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you have any talk with Mr. or Mrs. Borden that morning?

A. I talked with Mrs. Borden in the office, and with Mr. Borden at his house Wednesday morning.

Q. The morning before the tragedy?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You went over there somewhere between 8 and 9 o’clock, after your breakfast?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Do you know where Miss Lizzie was that morning?

A. I do not.

Q. Did they tell you where she was?

A. No.

Q. I ask you if they told you?

A. I do not think they did; I do not think I inquired after her.

Q. You do not remember anything about that?

A. No, I do not remember anything about that.

Q. The first time you went up with Dr. Dolan, was there then any examination made about the character

of the wounds, or the blood; or was that the second time?

A. I could not say whether it was the first or second time, I am sure.

Q. Did you form any opinion as to how long these people had been dead?

A. At that time I supposed they had been dead only a short time.

Q. What do you mean by “only a short time”?

A. I should say a half an hour.

Q. Did you form any opinion as to whether there was any essential difference in the time of their dying?

A. I did not at that time.

Q. Have you any opinion now?

A. I ought to have; I have heard opinions enough.

Q. Have you any opinion that you would care to express?

(Mr. Knowlton) Based upon a medical examination.

Q. That you care to express, based on what you have seen?

A. That would be merely supposition, or opinion.

Q. In consequence of what you saw there.

A. Well, yes.

Q. What is your opinion?

A. At what time do you wish to know? What time do you wish me to be at 12 o’clock or one o’clock?

Q. If you formed an opinion at any time when those parties had died, and an opinion as to the difference in the time of dying, I should like to know when it was you formed it, and what your opinion is, if youhave it now, if it is something that sticks to you.

A. I have no means, myself, of judging whether there was any difference in the time of their death, or not, no reliable opinion, no reliable information, no reliable way of possessing any that I know of myself, or that was used that day there.

Q. Or that was used that day?

A. Or that was used that day.

Q. Either by yourself, or anybody in your presence?

A. So far as I know.

 

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) A very few questions. When was the last time you saw Mr. Borden?

A. Mr. Borden, I saw him, I do not remember whether I ever saw him after Wednesday morning or not.

I know my wife said he was out on the sidewalk; whether I looked out and saw him, I do not remember.

Q. You did not see him on Wednesday morning?

A. Yes, I saw him Wednesday morning.

Q. One of them called on you with reference to sickness they had had there?

A. Mrs. Borden called.

Q. When was that?

A. Wednesday morning.

Q. How early?

A. That was before breakfast, sometime between seven and eight o’clock perhaps.

Q. What was it she complained of?

A. She came to my door and rang the bell, and said she was frightened. She said she was afraid that she had been poisoned. I asked her into my office, and she sat down. I questioned her on what she had been eating, and what her sickness consisted of, in what way; and told her what to do. I told her I guessed it would not be anything serious. At the time, during the time, she very nearly vomited, so much so, that I was getting something ready for her. Whether she did in her handkerchief, or not, I could not say; but she seemed to be sick all at once.

Q. Go on.

A. That is all of that. I told her what to do.

Q. Did she say the same things had happened to Mr. Borden during the night?

A. She said that Mr. Borden and herself were sick sometime between nine and twelve, that they were both vomiting, and that Lizzie, Miss Lizzie, was sick later. That she either went into the room, or heard them, and that about 12 she was vomiting-, had been vomiting Wednesday night.

Q. What time in the morning was this that she was in there?

A. In the office?

Q. Yes.

(Mr. Adams) All this is directed to Wednesday?

(Mr. Knowlton) Yes.

A. It was between seven and eight, before my breakfast sometime.

Q. Did her appearance seem to bear out what she said to you?

A. Yes, she acted sick

Q. You went over to the house after breakfast?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You were not called?

A. I went of my own accord.

Q. From the symptoms she had described, you felt somewhat alarmed?

A. Yes Sir, so many of them; not because they sent for me.

Q. When you got there, who did you see?

A. I think that Bridget Sullivan let me in at the front door; I am not certain, I think so. I am very sure that Miss Sullivan let me in.

Q. Who did you see?

A. I saw Mr. Borden.

Q. You talked with him?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. How did he appear to be?

A. He was lying down then. As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa.

Q. Did you see Lizzie then?

A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs.

Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.

Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?

A. I think not.

Q. Out of doors, or in?

A. I do not remember as I did. I know my wife said she was going up the street, or going down street towards night, that was Miss Lizzie.

Q. You did not see her during the day at all?

A. No Sir. I remember that, because my wife accounted for Mr. Borden being out, and Lizzie being out, and I suppose they were all right.

Q. That is the last time that you know of that you saw Mr. or Mrs. Borden?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You did not call upon them afterwards?

A. No Sir.

Q. That call was voluntary?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You were not sent for to come over. Dr. Bowen, you say Mrs. Churchill was there when you came in?

A. Yes Sir. In my first testimony I did not think she was, but I am satisfied now that she was.

Q. You saw Miss Lizzie when you came there?

A. The first time, yes.

Q. Where was she then?

A. I would not swear whether she was just as the edge of the kitchen or in the hall, or at the door I am sure. I remember what I said to her.

Q. You do not remember where she was?

A. I do not remember exactly where she was.

Q. Was she alone when you saw her?

A. I think Mrs. Churchill was with her, I am not certain.

Q. What was the first thing you said to her?

A. The first thing I said to her was “why Lizzie, what is the matter?” She said father had been killed or stabbed. That is all I remember just now.

Q. Anything more did she say?

A. Not until I asked her questions.

Q. What was the next question you asked her?

A. I would not say what the order was they were in. I do not pretend to remember the order. I asked her if she had seen anyone. I exclaimed, your father stabbed or killed. I asked her if she had seen anyone, seen anyone in the room. She said she had not. She said she was afraid her father had — I do not remember. She was afraid her father had had some trouble with the tenants; that was it, I think.

Q. Did not she say when you asked her if anybody had been there, that she had heard her father talking loud lately?

A. Yes Sir. That did not refer to that day particularly, but some previous time, that she had heard herfather talking loud.

Q. She had heard her father talking some previous day?

A. Yes, she had heard loud talking. The talk I had first was “why Lizzie, what is the matter?” She said her father had been killed or stabbed, I do not remember which. I asked her if she had seen anyone anybody about the house. She said she had not. She said she was afraid that her father—- I might have asked other questions. I remember the drift of the conversation was this, that she was afraid her father had had some trouble with the tenants.

Q. Did she say then she had overheard somebody talking in the house?

A. Yes, but not that day. She said that that day.

Q. The very first conversation when you got there was like that?

A. Yes Sir, sometime between the time I went there, and the time I left, my first visit.

Q. That was almost the very first thing you said when you saw her?

A. Yes. I think that conversation was on the way into the dining room.

Q. It was at that very first interview she told you of the trouble with the tenants, and the talking loud?

A. I think that was when I first went in.

Q. That was the first words you said to her?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You testified about this matter before the Inquest?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was your memory in a better condition then than it is now?

A. About the same. I do not think it is quite so good now.

Q. Did you say something of this kind, “I met Miss Lizzie in the hall. I says what is the matter Lizzie?

I spoke pretty quick. She said I think my father has been stabbed or hurt. I said has there been anybody here. She said not that she knew of. She said she had overheard her father talking loud recently, and was afraid ”

Q, That was so,was it?

A. So far as I remember, as near as I can remember.

Q. How soon did you go into the sitting room where the dead man was?

A. It could not have been very long.

Q. Immediately almost?

A. A very few minutes.

Q. Was not it at once?

A. Yes Sir, at once.

Q. As soon as you could go in, when you found out where he was, you went in?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. No very few minutes about it?

A. I cannot tell how many minutes it was, I am sure.

Q. Do you remember?

A. No Sir.

Q. Is not it the fact that the spectacle of those two bodies dazed you for a while, so you had no adequate remembrance of what was going on?

A. It took me sometime, I must say, to straighten out my actions during the first half hour; it took me almost all the week to satisfy myself where I was.

Q. What you do remember about it now, is a conscious attempt to recollect what was entirely confused in your mind at the time?

A. Yes Sir, and hearing witnesses, and getting at the truth, as near as I could.

Q. You have got a kind of a revived impression of what took place?

A. Yes Sir. (“Revived” is objected to, but waived.)

Q. If you had not heard anybody tell about it at all, you would have a pretty confused idea of what went on? Will you tell me if you would remember anything about that matter if you had not heard these other witnesses talk, any distinct recollection?

A. Certainly.

Q. Of what took place in the first half hour?

A. Somewhat; I would not say positive, I am sure.

Q. I suppose you went in there as soon as you could?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Will you tell me whether you noticed anything, except what you have said, wrong about that picture, as you saw him first?

A. (Putting on his glasses.) Excepting the sliding down; that is all.

Q. In every other respect does the recollection of what you saw there, correspond with that picture now?

A. So far as I know.

Q. Dr. Bowen, it was an awful sight, was it not?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. It was a ghastly sight, was it not?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. It effected you to tears, did it not, Doctor?

A. No Sir.

Q. When you came out from that room into the other room, were there not tears streaming down your cheeks?

A. I should not think so.

Q. Would you say they were not, if anybody else said so?

A. I should want more than one to say it, or two or three.

Q. The eye ball was hanging out itself?

A. It was cut in two, in halves.

Q. And lay on one cheek or the other?

A. No it was not lying on the cheek. It was cut in two, or cut in halves, and remained almost in the natural position.

Q. You do not remember that you came out of that room with the tears streaming down your face?

A. No Sir.

Q. You think you did not?

A. I think I did not; I am sure I did not.

Q. What did you say the position of the arms was, I wanted to get that, Mrs. Borden’s?

A. Very near that way, crossed this way. (showing.)

Q. When did you first see the body of Mrs. Borden?

A. What time?

Q. Where were you when you first saw it?

A. I was in the door way.

Q. Standing in the door way?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. Who were with you?

A. Nobody as I know of. There might have been somebody behind me, I do not know.

Q. Who suggested your going up into the front room?

A. Mrs. Churchill.

Q. Did you have any talk with Lizzie about going up in the front room?

A. No Sir.

Q. Did you hear Lizzie say she thought her mother had come back?

A. No Sir.

Q. Did you hear her say she thought her mother had gone out then before you went away?

A. I am very sure she said that her mother had had a note that morning, and had gone out, or she thought she had gone out. The question was raised where is Mrs. Borden; and as nobody could account for her, I left and went down street on that evidence. I did not have time, I did not think it was necessary for me to look.

Q. It was when you came back the second time, you found Mrs. Borden?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You did not go up stairs the first time you came in?

A. No Sir.

Q. Whether anybody had been up there before you had, you do not know?

A. No Sir.

Q. Who had been up there before you had, you do not know?

A. I know two had been up, but I do not know how many before me. I know that two had been up, I do not know how many more had been up.

Q. Did you ask Lizzie at any time where she was when her father was killed?

A. Yes Sir. That was the first visit, I omitted that.

Q. What did she say?

A. She said she was out in the barn?

Q. What did she say she was doing out in the barn?

A. She said she was looking for irons, or something to that effect. I think that was the word that was used, looking for irons.

RE-DIRECT

Q. (Mr. Adams) When Mrs. Borden came over to your house Wednesday morning, and had this talk with you, she described her symptoms?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You asked her such medical questions as you thought were proper?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You said to her you did not think it was anything serious?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. What did you think the matter was at that time?

A. At that time the weather was very warm, and it was not unusual for people to be unwell that way.

Q. It is a common complaint at that time of the year?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. And has happened in your practice?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. She said she and Mr. Borden were taken about nine o’clock, and Lizzie was taken sick about twelve o’clock?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. That is between Tuesday night and Wednesday morning?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. When you say you thought she had that appearance, you did not mean I should understand she had the appearance of being poisoned?

A. I had the impression by her actions that she was sick, felt sick.

Q. You did not prescribe for her on the theory that she had been poisoned?

A. No.

(Court) Doctor, let me understand. When you saw the body of Mrs. Borden, as I understand you, lying flat on the face, were her arms folded across the face?

A. They were.

(Court) Under her

A. Yes Sir, they were.

(Court) She was laying on her arms?

A. Yes Sir.

RE-CROSS

 

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) How long a look did you take at the body at that time?

A. The first time up there, I do not suppose it was more than a minute or two.

Q. Were you taking particular notice of the position of things at that time?

A. No Sir I was not, except herself, except the body.

Q. You were not looking at it as a physician would look at an ordinary case?

A. No Sir. I was satisfying myself she was dead.

Q. You were then, if you will pardon me for saying so, quite excited?

A. I was.

Q. You were very excited?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. You looked at that thing, however, so to satisfy yourself she was dead?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. The position was only incidental?

A. It was incidental, for I saw it several times after that, and took several parties up.

Q. Who was up there, and saw it in the same position that you saw it?

A. I cannot tell.

Q. Tell me anybody that saw it as you have described it.

A. I dont know.

Q. You have seen the witnesses that testified on the stand who saw it; can you tell me any of them who saw it, so I could see whether their memory coincided with you.

A. I am not positive.

Q. When was the last time you saw the body in that position, with the arms under it?

A. After Dr. Dolan came we turned the body over on the back—

Q. When was the last time you saw her with her arms under her, instead of over her head?

A. Before she was moved by the direction of Medical Examiner Dolan.

Q. When Dr. Dolan first came, her arms were in the same position as when you first saw her?

A. So far as I know.

Q. So far as you remember?

A. Yes Sir.

Q. So when Dr. Dolan first came, the position he found her in was the position you first found her in?

A. So far as I remember.

Q. So far as you remember now?

A. So far as I remember. I did not intend to have her disturbed until the medical Examiner was there. I intended to notify him as soon as I could.

Q. So far as you can remember the position in which Dr. Dolan found her, was the same position in which you found her?

A. So far as I know.

Q. Did officer Allen get there before you?

A. I do not know the man. I should not know him, if he was here. As I was going out the first time, I think I said I wished someone would notify the police.

Q. Do you know whether officer Allen came there before you did the second time?

A. I do not. I know this fact, that Mr. Sawyer said that some officer was there; and I satisfied myself that the police were notified.

Q. Had got there before you got back the second time?

A. I satisfied myself that the police were notified of the event by the presence of a police officer, who was not, I think in uniform.

Q. Before you went off the first time?

A. Before I left the first time.

Q. (Mr. Adams) Had you, before this time, assisted at a number of autopsies with Dr. Dwelley?

(Mr. Knowlton) I will admit he is an experienced Autopser.

(Mr. Adams) I want to know whether he had had any experience that would teach him to observe.

(Mr. Knowlton) I concede it; he is an expert.

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